Criticism of F9 Fairness.

[Eli Wapniarski]

Hi Everyone.

I've been mostly staying out of this debate because I'm not a voting member.
However, I must say that most of the criticism that I've read on the net has
been quite fair regarding Fedora 9.

While being experimental people rely on it also to get their work done.
Problems with NVidia drivers, Xinerama problems with X Windows. (IMHO and
with much appreciation to the very hard work everyone is putting into Fedora)
a brain dead KDE 4.0x. And everyone caught in the same RH 8 mode of thinking
that because its newer its got to be better.

Bleeding edge thats great. But not so edgy that the users relying on the
software start bleeding. We rely on and need our desktop to play games, do
real work, surf the net, access information on computers and on the network
etc.

Please consider this when putting out Fedora 10. Maybe its time to slow down a
little and take a breath huh? Just a little :).

Eli
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[José Matos]

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Hi Everyone.
I've been mostly staying out of this debate because I'm not a voting
member. However, I must say that most of the criticism that I've read on
the net has been quite fair regarding Fedora 9.
While being experimental people rely on it also to get their work done.
Problems with NVidia drivers,

Ugh?
That means no new xorg release ever as nvidia is waiting for a distribution to
release the new version. If all the distributions wait for nvidia we then have
a deadlock. The criticism should be directed to nvidia, not fedora.

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Xinerama problems with X Windows. (IMHO and
with much appreciation to the very hard work everyone is putting into
Fedora) a brain dead KDE 4.0x. And everyone caught in the same RH 8 mode of
thinking that because its newer its got to be better.

This is a non-argument. Come you should at least test what you are going into
and with the new live images (as there are for KDE in Fedora) you don't even
need to install to test it. :-)

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Bleeding edge thats great. But not so edgy that the users relying on the
software start bleeding. We rely on and need our desktop to play games, do
real work, surf the net, access information on computers and on the network
etc.

Fedora 8 is still supported, what is holding you from staying there? Notice
that this is a general question, not necessarily addressed at you. :-)

By some standard even F-8 is still and edge distribution (I am not thinking
about Debian before you ask ;-) ).

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Please consider this when putting out Fedora 10. Maybe its time to slow
down a little and take a breath huh? Just a little :).

I surely hope not. The Fedora motto is to follow upstream and that is a good
motto even if sometimes brings some inconveniences. :-)

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Eli

[Eli Wapniarski]

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Hi Everyone.
I've been mostly staying out of this debate because I'm not a voting
member. However, I must say that most of the criticism that I've read on
the net has been quite fair regarding Fedora 9.
While being experimental people rely on it also to get their work done.
Problems with NVidia drivers,

Ugh?
That means no new xorg release ever as nvidia is waiting for a
distribution to
release the new version. If all the distributions wait for nvidia we then have
a deadlock. The criticism should be directed to nvidia, not fedora.

Firstly, I've been prodding NVidia through nvnews for about a month concerning legacy drivers. They say they're coming but... Its still frustrating. No... It means Beta software is Beta software and should not be released as a final. The fault lies with Fedora as well as Nvidia for releasing a Final Fedora release with fundamental software that every other graphical platform depends on and is known to be fundementally flawed... How do you know that.... Its Beta duh.

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Xinerama problems with X Windows. (IMHO and
with much appreciation to the very hard work everyone is putting into
Fedora) a brain dead KDE 4.0x. And everyone caught in the same RH 8 mode of
thinking that because its newer its got to be better.

This is a non-argument. Come you should at least test what you are going into
and with the new live images (as there are for KDE in Fedora) you don't even
need to install to test it. :-)

Maybe... If I can find the time. But in the meantime I still need to get my stuff done.

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Bleeding edge thats great. But not so edgy that the users relying on the
software start bleeding. We rely on and need our desktop to play games, do
real work, surf the net, access information on computers and on the network
etc.

Fedora 8 is still supported, what is holding you from staying there? Notice
that this is a general question, not necessarily addressed at you. :-)

I am using it. The question is will the problems be fixed before Fedora 10 and end of life of Fedora 8. And if not then where does that leave me.

Post by José Matos
By some standard even F-8 is still and edge distribution (I am not thinking
about Debian before you ask ;-) ).

Maybe so.... But at least everything that I need it to do, it does.

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Please consider this when putting out Fedora 10. Maybe its time to slow
down a little and take a breath huh? Just a little :).

I rely on you guys to help me get through my day.

Post by José Matos
I surely hope not. The Fedora motto is to follow upstream and that is a good
motto even if sometimes brings some inconveniences. :-)

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Eli

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[Rex Dieter]

Post by Eli Wapniarski
While being experimental people rely on it also to get their work done.
Problems with NVidia drivers, Xinerama problems with X Windows.

NVidia is nothing but NVidia's problems. srsly.

Xinerama? can't comment, not aware of any issues there.

Post by Eli Wapniarski
with much appreciation to the very hard work everyone is putting into Fedora)
a brain dead KDE 4.0x.

Calling it brain dead is a bit harsh, but you do have a point, here's
some more interesting reading:

http://troy-at-kde.livejournal.com/16734.html

-- Rex

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[Eli Wapniarski]

Post by Rex Dieter

Post by Eli Wapniarski
While being experimental people rely on it also to get their work done.
Problems with NVidia drivers, Xinerama problems with X Windows.

NVidia is nothing but NVidia's problems. srsly.

Yes and no. Fedora 9 is released with a (and I must stress this) BETA version
of Xwindows. And that is Fedora's problem. On the other hand, the ABI
(whatever that is) is apparently set in stone. So NVidia should be doing a
better job providing timely support for a major Linux distribution. While my
main desktop is still Fedora 8. My multimedia machine is using a GeForce 2
and has already been upgraded to Fedora 9. Only the open source NV driver
doesn't work with a TV out only setup. And Nouveau still doesn't support TV
out at all as far as I know. And no Legacy driver support.

Right now I'm pretending that the VESA driver is providing almost resonable
performance. It's tough watching the Cylon Hub blow up in jerk motion.

Post by Rex Dieter
Xinerama? can't comment, not aware of any issues there.

Apperantly... AaronP from NVIDIA Corporation this month says that there is a
known problem with OpenGL in Xinerama which should be fixed in the next
release.

Link to the discussion can be found at:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114175

If anyone can find more direct info, it would be good.

I also remember awhile back, there was a discussion on this mailing list with
a link pointing to a kde blog indicating that there was an Xinerama problem
and KDE 4.0x

Post by Rex Dieter

Post by Eli Wapniarski
with much appreciation to the very hard work everyone is putting into
Fedora) a brain dead KDE 4.0x.

Calling it brain dead is a bit harsh, but you do have a point, here's
http://troy-at-kde.livejournal.com/16734.html

Yes it is interesting reading. And quite right, but If I can't use it, I can't
be of much help can I. Like I said in a previous email to this forum. KDE 4.1
seems to be much much better, but Fedora 9 needs to overcome the Xwindows
problem before it can be useful to me and I can install it on my main
desktop.

Eli
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[Arthur Pemberton]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Eli Wapniarski

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Hi Everyone.
I've been mostly staying out of this debate because I'm not a voting member.
However, I must say that most of the criticism that I've read on the net has
been quite fair regarding Fedora 9.
While being experimental people rely on it also to get their work done.
Problems with NVidia drivers, Xinerama problems with X Windows. (IMHO and
with much appreciation to the very hard work everyone is putting into Fedora)
a brain dead KDE 4.0x. And everyone caught in the same RH 8 mode of thinking
that because its newer its got to be better.
Bleeding edge thats great. But not so edgy that the users relying on the
software start bleeding. We rely on and need our desktop to play games, do
real work, surf the net, access information on computers and on the network
etc.
Please consider this when putting out Fedora 10. Maybe its time to slow down a
little and take a breath huh? Just a little :).
Eli

Why can't people read the prerelease announcement and make an educated
decision on if and when to upgrade?

[Rex Dieter]

Post by Arthur Pemberton
Why can't people read the prerelease announcement and make an educated
decision on if and when to upgrade?

Because they want their ponies, and they want them *now* *now* *now*.

-- Rex


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[Eli Wapniarski]

Post by Rex Dieter

Post by Arthur Pemberton
Why can't people read the prerelease announcement and make an educated
decision on if and when to upgrade?

Because they want their ponies, and they want them *now* *now* *now*.

Yep... You got it... But seriously. When software goes gold, you wouldn't
expect that the foundations are half finished would you. You shouldn't have
to read any prerelease anything for that would you? Xwindows provides the
foundation for everything... well... hmmm... let me see... Xwindows... If
Xwindows is buggy then everything that runs under Xwindows is buggy. If you
run into a problem is it the software or Xwindows?


What are we doing running a free version of Windows.... (sarcasim - Not flame
bait).

Eli

Post by Rex Dieter
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[José Matos]

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Yep... You got it... But seriously. When software goes gold, you wouldn't
expect that the foundations are half finished would you. You shouldn't have
to read any prerelease anything for that would you? Xwindows provides the
foundation for everything... well... hmmm... let me see... Xwindows... If
Xwindows is buggy then everything that runs under Xwindows is buggy. If you
run into a problem is it the software or Xwindows?

Eli I know you from a long time here so I can place your message in the
correct context.

So with this said I would like to point the following, you have just a couple
of examples to show that the version of XWindow (please not the capitalization
and the absence of the last _s_) is buggy for most people it works.

It is not because a software is declared stable that bugs simply go away.

OK, just to give you an example of what I mean, I am the release manager of
LyX, I have been working with it for a long time and at a certain point I have
decided to compile old versions just for fun.

I am speaking of versions prior to the qt-frontend that were xforms based.

For some time there was a bug in the Xorg version (and XFree86 before) where X
would simply blow up if I tried to run any ancient version of LyX. That is a
bug no matter how buggy the application is the server should not crash.

Another case was when at a certain point all kernels refused to boot on my
laptop. For some reason the BIOS would give the wrong address of some PCI
setup.

What I am saying is that if something bad happens to us it is a catastrophe,
if it happens to others it is a statistical number. This means that I can
understand your frustration but that does not prove that this version is
buggier than the previous. :-)

Post by Eli Wapniarski
What are we doing running a free version of Windows.... (sarcasim - Not
flame bait).

Some of my windows friends disagree they think that is becoming prettier than
windows. Really. :-) I was using the latest kde 4.1 beta 1, specifically the
new kmail and the korganizer and I got a wow from the guy next to me. :-)

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Eli

[Eli Wapniarski]

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Yep... You got it... But seriously. When software goes gold, you wouldn't
expect that the foundations are half finished would you. You shouldn't have
to read any prerelease anything for that would you? Xwindows provides the
foundation for everything... well... hmmm... let me see... Xwindows... If
Xwindows is buggy then everything that runs under Xwindows is buggy. If you
run into a problem is it the software or Xwindows?

Eli I know you from a long time here so I can place your message in the
correct context.
So with this said I would like to point the following, you have just a couple
of examples to show that the version of XWindow (please not the capitalization
and the absence of the last _s_) is buggy for most people it works.
It is not because a software is declared stable that bugs simply go away.

I quite agree with this statement. However, being declared stable means that the developers have to the best of their ability removed bugs that prevent the features that are advertised to work there to actually work. Being declared Beta does not declare that kind of obligation. Also, being Beta does not oblige third parties who would otherwise be obliged to support it. Like Xinerama.

Post by José Matos
OK, just to give you an example of what I mean, I am the release manager of
LyX, I have been working with it for a long time and at a certain point I have
decided to compile old versions just for fun.
I am speaking of versions prior to the qt-frontend that were xforms based.
For some time there was a bug in the Xorg version (and XFree86
before) where X
would simply blow up if I tried to run any ancient version of LyX. That is a
bug no matter how buggy the application is the server should not crash.
Another case was when at a certain point all kernels refused to boot on my
laptop. For some reason the BIOS would give the wrong address of some PCI
setup.
What I am saying is that if something bad happens to us it is a catastrophe,
if it happens to others it is a statistical number. This means that I can
understand your frustration but that does not prove that this version is
buggier than the previous. :-)

That's usually true. And right now the sky is not falling. However,

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
What are we doing running a free version of Windows.... (sarcasim - Not
flame bait).

Some of my windows friends disagree they think that is becoming prettier than
windows. Really. :-) I was using the latest kde 4.1 beta 1, specifically the
new kmail and the korganizer and I got a wow from the guy next to me. :-)

I absolutely agree. Its always been the case. KDE IMHO has always been pretty and more useful as a desktop than Windows. And the brief looks I have when I have to close MythTV makes me go dang... I want to get this on my main desktop. However, buggy Xinerama in XWindow prevents me from installing Fedora 9 and KDE 4.1 Beta on my main dual head desktop. Even though I am using a newer NVidia card and NVidia is providing support for newer models.

Post by José Matos

Post by Eli Wapniarski
Eli

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